+Divinity Bovinity: "For me quality of life is more important than [quantity]. This goes for both animals and humans. I do try (with the exception of fish) to only eat dual purpose animals. For example a cow can live a happy life as a milk maker and then become beef. As for why it matters, if I am going to only have a short life span I would rather have a short happy one than a short miserable one."

FWIW, +Divinity Bovinity, it remains a very strange notion to me that providing an individual with an ostensibly happy life somehow equates to making it reasonable to then take that life, you know?

If you don't mind, I'd like to explore this idea a bit further with you -- and not because I'm trying to brow beat or anything weird like that, but rather because I really want to understand how these two seemingly contradictory ideas can coexist.

So, to my way of thinking, it's not as though the cow, pig, dog, et al., has somehowagreed to give it's life to us. Rather, the best we can do is empathize and anthropomorphise with the non-human-animal, which is what we're doing when we decide they should be made happy. But then we must suspend those thoughts and feelings in order to kill them.

If you will bear with me a moment, let's consider the "trade" we're forcing on these beings, and I'll do so assuming the best possible environment for the life of a dairy cow (as the vast majority have a great deal more suffering involved then what I'm about to cover):

In the case of a well cared for dairy cow, she is forcibly inseminated repeatedly through her life (annually), made to give birth year after year, having her children removed from her immediately against her will (to either be killed as veal or follow her in to the same life), unduring daily milkings aided by supplements and careful breeding and sometimes hormones to unsure she has the largest breasts possible, and maintained in conditions ranging from confined spaces to enclosed paddocks she cannot escape (should she wish it).

Then, after her usefulness to humans has passed because of her life of labors making her body prematurely frail well before her dotage, she's sold to whoever wishes to end her life and eat her flesh. At that point, she will usually be between six and nine years old, though cows easily live in to their twenties.

My point in touching on all of this is: Roles reversed, is this a deal you would willingly make for yourself, +Divinity Bovinity? Assuming the answer is "no", then my follow up question is probably easy to anticipate: How can it be reasonable for us to force that deal on someone else

+Divinity Bovinity: "FWIW I warn warn you that I am a rather odd person. I would certainly want a better quality of life than animals on industrialized farms have but yes I would consider it. Lets say for example I could reasonably expect to live to be 80. Would I trade 10% of my life span to be cared for and live the way I want. .... 72 is still a lot of time to be happy. I can't say for sure I would not because I have never thought of it before. So if I could be a cow on a family run farm that is looking only for self sufficiency not maximizing profits at all cost I may take the deal."

Hmm... In earnest respect, +Divinity Bovinity, I honestly don't believe you would. I say this for a couple of reasons. =o)

Primarily this is because the analogy wouldn't be a loss of 10% of your life, but would be 50% to 75% (i.e. age 30 to 45). Given the conditions of servitude (no matter how gently forced), utter lack of freedom to make your own choices about things like what to eat or whether to be pregnant or by whom you're made pregnant (no matter how gently impregnated), etc... I honestly cannot believe that anyone in their right mind, no matter how odd, would agree to such conditions.

Also, because you come across as a compassionate person who obviously values life, it's difficult for me to believe that one such as yourself would enter in to a deal which locks your children in to the same path of servitude you've chosen for yourself, allowing your sons to be annually killed and eaten, or if you have daughters, forcing them to follow your same path.

Maybe I just think too highly of my fellow humans, but these are hard things for me to believe about others.

Fair enough?

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This post is one in a series in which excerpts of discussions on veganism from other threads are reposted (or paraphrased) for the sake of expanding the conversation. As always, your thoughts and questions are welcome. See the full collection via the #spommveganchats hash (or perhaps with a more robust search, such as goo.gl/JoxZC).

(for anyone requiring/desiring more context, the original conversation can be found at goo.gl/2WJe4Y)

#vegan   #feminism   #agribusiness   #milk